For some reason, I've been seeing more D&D or references to it. I watched a few videos on stuff like youtube.com and video.google.com of some people playing it, and to me it just looks like a board game version of an MMORPG. You got a mod (DM), a few players, and you roll dice for movement/damage/ect. From what I've heard it has been associated with evil, and witchcraft. But aren't all fantasy games accused of being occultic? What makes this any worse? Supposedly, some of the rituals are base on real rituals. But can't you choose not to be evil? I know you get to choose your alignment, and to me it sounds like Fable where you can choose your path, good/evil/whatever. So, my question is, can Christians play D&D without having to "play evil" (do spells, whatever)? I'm not going to play D&D anyway, I justed wanted to know why people got so freaked out about it. I've never played it so I have no idea how offensive it really is to Christians.

I played D&D for a number of years with my friends, and except for that one night we stole and killed a small child in the name of Maal, we never did anything bad. It should be pointed out that we were also drunk, per the D&D rule book instructions.


:rolleyes:


In all reality though, D&D is a wonderful game. But like any game, if people get too into it, or take it seriously, there can be negitive ramifications to it. If a christian wanted to play D&D, it is easy enough to customize. There is even a Paladin that channels the good divine power to smite evil and chaos and heal good. Clerics too are preists. Heck, there is even a PC called a preist, though it is prestige class (AKA: Not often played). As for alienment, you have:

Chaotic Good: Works for oneself but won't intentonally harm someone for shits and giggles.
Neutral Good: Middle of the Road fellow
Lawful Good: Always tries to help someone, goes out of their way to save others.

And then the opposites of those. You can chose what you want to be and whatnot.

The D&D book does not offer any "how to guide" to preforming black rights rituals or anything of the sort. It doesn't offer a casting method for spells outside of "Roll a d4 and add two to see how many magic missle hits are calculated." Its merely rules for imaginary enviroments and dice rolling, as well as mythical creatures.

If you find the idea of wizards casting spells in a made up world, through the manner in which you roll a 20 sided dice, then yes, I can see how you'd have a problem with the game. Outside of that, no, its pretty fine.

You can, of course, cater it to be evil. You can just as easily cater it to be good. Or just play it in it's realtivly mild form.

I guess I would need a better idea of what you'd find offensive though to be really able to answer your question.

Constant references to false gods/goddesses, heavy involvement of demonic characters, any kind of real symbols or rituals, stuff like that is offensive to me. I strongly dislike wizards/mages/spellcasters. Clerics can sometimes be sacreligious or support other religious beliefs like reincarnation. Other than that I can't really think of anything.

If I did play, I would heavily base my character on being a good holy non-spellcaster. I'm definately anti-spellcaster. It seems simple enough, I learned some of the basics of the game and I think I might be able to use those ideas in computer games I make. It just seems like an open-ended story game with light rules. Pretty much all you need is some dice and a character sheet and about 3 people (1DM and 2 people so you're not adventuring by yourself). I'm kind of confused about the rules, how honest are people with their character sheets? Who's to say you're not a super high level or whatever? Can't the DM just give you an unreasonable load of xp? I guess the DM can pretty much get you killed too though. What's to limit the DM from just mobbing until you die?

This really just sounds like a good way to get ideas for a fantasy novel.

Yeah, most of the people I know who were into roleplaying liked more story driven campaigns. The fun of it was creating the story with their friends.

Article about Christians And D&D (Pro-D&D)

Jack Chick (talked about in the article about) is really anti-D&D. His comic about D&D is so corny, and stupid. I haven't heard any anti-D&D arguments so far that have been any good. I'm sure you could find a situation where people have customized the game in a negative way, but from what I've read it's all up for customization.

There are Gods of the old world that can come up, or you can really just use whatever you want. Thats the real beauty of it, you don't have to use what the rulebook starts off saying you can make up pretty much whatever you want. Same thing with demonic characters. The rulebook has rules for them, but you don't have to incorperate them. Or you can just bash them to death with a blessed mace of uber-killy-ness.

It is very open, as you've seen withy your light involvment. The rules are pretty simple enough too, and basiclly allow for (as Boru said) story driven campagins, which I've found the most fun.

To answer your questions:

The Character Sheets can either be made at a certain level, whatever that might be with your group, or you can use one you've had before, and then its basiclly like an honor system.

The DM is the mastermind of it all, so he/she (okay, he) can choose what to give you, what you face, whatever. You could be a lvl 1 fighter and the DM is all like "Okay, a massive Titian attacks you" and thats that. Obviously you don't want to do that, because then the game ends and you still have a whole bunch of cheetos left over and no one to eat them with.

The only limits on the DM, outside of what your group puts on him is...well.... nothing. The limits on how much fun he really wants to have, I guess.

I suppose if you use the stock campgains and all, the pre-written ones, you might have a problem with constatntly running into spellcasters and demons of sorts. But we never did that, mainly because we didn't have the money for the additional books, so we just made them up for ourselves, which is somthing you could do as well.

This pretty much sums up the whole argument from the viewpoint against the game. This pretty much what I heard about the game before I actually researched it:

Well crap, if that's true our schools could learn from D&D because it seems they can't teach half that number of subjects at one time. lol :lol:

We are going to want to limit this thread to the relgious concerns of D&D and fantay games. Thanks ;)

Haveing had quite some experience with people who are anti D&D (and RPG): They reason that doing RPG as such opens a person to demonic influence (and even possession). This is based on what some (often supposed) ex-Satanists have to say. Plus there are some apparent reports of teenagers involved in D&D who committed suicide.

I have learnt not to just accept what anyone says about these things, and do research myself.

Yeah, but I mean, there are reports of teenagers commiting sucide even when they are churching going people, or jocks or whatever. Last year Sports Illustrated did a report on a town of 9,000 people that had 4 kids from their football team commit sucide over a few years. Would that lead the same people who think that D&D leads to sucide to believe that Football leads to sucide? I doubt it.

After a list of suicide reports, this is what the Jack Chick website continues to say:

Source
----------------------
You think that's a bad argument? Look at this:

WHAT THE?!?! :blink:

Source for both: Caution, overuse of ALL CAPS and exclaimation marks

:blink: ...

----------------
Kind of off-topc, comedic D&D session audio.
If you haven't already heard this, I suggest you listen to the audio. It's funny.

- Audio

I suppose that there will be those of any religion I that see competing worldviews as a threat to their own.

The same people who will villify D&D will villify Harry Potter, Fantasy Games, video games, rated-R movies, and anything fun.

http://www.flashplayer.com/animation/8bitd...ovie.php#bottom

That really explains it all.

Don't forget halloween being in the villified list! And the Easter bunny too, since he really confuses the poor children... like, how could anyone get hunting easter eggs from a "Christian" holiday.

Actually, I have no problem when Christians "villify" Harry Potter or Halloween. I think that's understandable.

Some Christians are against the Lord of the Rings. I like LoTR. The Lord of the Rings (to me) isn't as bad as Harry Potter (since most of the time Harry and his friends use spells/magic/ect in everyday life or to fight "evil", which to a Christian would be like evil vs evil). In LoTR it's not as focused on magic, but more medieval fantasy.

I would not play a spellcaster in D&D, it really does offend me. However, I wouldn't be totally oppose to one joining the group. If they actually did rituals/dances/guestures/ect (which I haven't seen yet) then I wouldn't want to play with them, that's just offensive to me as a Christian because I see that as an evil practice.

But many games like Final Fantasy put "magic" class characters in your party, and don't say where their power actually comes from.
Basically, it's just
Fire 1,2,3
Ice 1,2,3
Lightning 1,2,3 and so on.
It doesn't get much worse than that. A lot might get offended by the summoning though, since they do use a lot of gods/goddesses/demons/monsters to summon if you have a "Caller/Summoner" in your party (which, unless you're playing FF Tactics probably isn't optional).

As for games, you can take them as seriously as you want to. I don't believe anyone will follow Zelda's Tri-force religion just because they played the game and saw (in Ocarina) the story of three goddesses creating basically everything. I still like Zelda, sure. I think they could have done without that part though.

Some games make it a little too noticable though. Final Fantasy (I believe it was IX/9) had a lot of weird teaches they were trying to tell you near the end of the game. A lot of crazy things dealing with souls, death, reincarnation, and so on. I think FFVII tried that also around with the long explaination of another version of reincarnation or something. Sometimes they just go too far with trying to teach a religious belief in a video games.

As for the Easter Bunny, him and Santa Claus are well known lies parents tell their children. It's just like the Tooth Fairy. You shouldn't be suprised that a Christian would get offended when Santa seems to be made out like some sort of god.

See I'd have to disagree with you.

I view the "religions" in D&D and Zelda and Final Fantasy to be merely fictious. It's not like they were intended to be followed, they're there as part of a story.

Have you read the Lord of the Rings? Or how about The lion the witch and the Wardrobe? They were BOTH written by very devout Christians who took their religion seriously and both of them were in a sense intended to be religoius allegories. There are similarities to be drawn between Aragorn and Jesus and Aslan and Jesus that are intentional.

In terms of the fantasy games, the religions are there as part of the story, just like the elvish religion and myths in the Lord of the Rings are there. The people creating the games and stories are creating a whole other world. Religion is part of that world just like it is part of ours. I don't think they intended it to be followed in this world, they're merely using their imagination, a gift from God, to create a new world, and shaping how the people who inhabit that world relate to God in it.

As such I wouldn't be offended, nor am I by Harry Potter, D&D or the final fanasy series. Is your faith so weak that you feel threatened by other faiths? If so I'd question what kind of faith it is. Let other people have their religions, you can view them as wrong if you like, but I find it disturbing that you are "offended" by them as if your faith can not allow for the existence of another faith in the world and anyone who talks about theirs or even creates another one is some how out to convert you. If you feel under attack I think that is more of an internal response that may not necessarily be founded on external events.

Being irreverent with something a religion views as sacred is called sacrilege. Being sacrilegious isn’t something most Christians can take lightly. Of course Christians are aware people don't really follow the religion of fictional stories. That doesn't mean it can't be offensive when a lot of things parallel real beliefs and religions. I'm not sure how that could be a weakness of faith when people are willing to stand up and say that things just aren't acceptable because of their personal beliefs and convictions. If you’re willing to stand up for what you believe in, then wouldn’t that be strong faith?

You're right--standing up for one's beliefs is a sign of faith.

However, feeling threatened by something that's not a true threat can be a sign of doubt and insecurity. So I guess it depends on how you look at it.

This kind of goes with something that I often disagree with my father about.

He's a super-religeous Christian-Jew (a name I made up, as his beliefs seem to cross both religeons). He says I can't even watch or read Harry Potter books or movies without "participating in Pagan [satanist to him] rituals".

Firstly, I'm an athiest, so I don't believe any of that, but this fits with this topic. The question is: How far are you willing to go? Is watching a movie, or playing a game in your case, "practicing" magic or other "Satanist" rituals?

I believe you are only practicing evil rituals if you are doing it for those same "evil" reasons. My father also thinks that passing out candy on Halloween is evil, but Halloween is no longer celebrated to worship the Devil. It's done for candy and fun.

I think if the exact same actions occur, but for sompletely different reasons, it's not the same anymore, and people need to take a step back and look at the intentions of actions rather than the actions themselves.

-IMP ;) :)

I disagree with the whole nature of Halloween as it is celebrated today, reguardless of how it was celebrated way back when. Learning it's past only makes me dislike the "holiday" more.

Harry Potter crosses the line between innocent "magic" and darker themes. It's not just because they use "magic", it's the deceitful and dark nature of the characters involved in the story which are suppose to represent the “good guys.” Sleeping Beauty had magical fairy guardians involved as the good guys. However, their personality wasn't dark or shades of gray or have hidden motives. Harry Potter is like a regular kid who has special powers so you wouldn't be suprised if he abused them for his own gain, maybe even take revenge on someone. When the "good guys" are no longer representing good any better than the bad guys then it's no longer as tolerable. Therefore, it is not held at the same level as Disney magic fairy people and the like who are seen as more innocent "magic" users (usually with no stated source for their magic powers nor do they normally have spell books or rituals).

I was under the impression halloween began as a ritual to dispell evil with the scary costumes? Maybe that's why society's going to the dogs- crappy cheap costumes letting evil spirits possess you :P

D&D is a game. You can opt to play, or you don't. If other people want to be 'evil' let them do it in their own company and whoever is so inclined to be in it with them, just as long as there is tolerance for each other that's fine with me :)

@Zairik- 'good' and 'evil' as universal concepts can't be black and white. harry potter shows a grey area, or a lesser evil if you like. Very good for children to learn about real life in the form of a jolly old story in my opinion. Look at comparing Harry Potter to soldiers in WWII or any other war- people sometimes have to do 'evil' things in order to allow 'good' to overcome. I find that children's TV evolves as the child gets older and sleeping beauty is very far down the list (i.e 3-4 years up, and that teaches the distinction between good and evil in their extreme forms, like the wicked fairy types versus the knight in shining armour/prince type character). Moving up the line you find that in Snow White & the 7 dwarves that usually bad people are more complex than your pantomime suiperficial baddies who get hissed at all the time and that they are capable of kindness (the assassin person who is employed to kill her lets her go), and to bring it back into context, harry potter is just another step in that chain you can see that good people are capable of mistakes. If you just make it so that you have these absolutist versions of good and evil then people get very confused.

That and if you DO take part in satanic rituals whilst doing it, then you learn that you a potential follower of christ is capable of a mistake and is very capable of learning the value of repentance etc etc and being able to warn the future generations of being satanic

There aren't always black and white issues, but you can make a big impression on kids by giving them a role model (good/bad/shades of gray).

D&D only puts you in a world created by the DM, what you do with your character is up to you. Find a good group of friends and play how you like. It's like the game Fable, you are allowed to choose evil, but that doesn't mean you're going to or have to. There are just as many things to do and stories to be told as a good guy. It's like a movie. You have a director (DM) to keep everything progressing or acting as the final say, actors (PC's) to play their own roles in the story, extras (NPC's) who help in the story telling, scenes (landscapes and areas) where it happens, themes (time period in which it happens, ect), and so on.

If I had a set of the game I probably would.